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Hot shots pokerSo here's one from Saturday.
This is a "friendly" game with an uncapped button straddle.
He's in that grey area where if the other player wanted to call it a raise he could have, but I've seen it enough in these rooms that that doesn't really even bother me anymore.
This hot shots poker seriously one of the hardest moments for me to ever bite my tongue but I did because I wasn't in the hand.
I had already decided that if the floor didn't get called over or the floor ruled that that wasn't a raise that I would have just immediately picked up my chips and left.
Luckily the floor guy did rule that it was a raise, but holy shit, there were actually people there defending him.
People genuinely thought that it was OK to call a bet in the manner that he did taking a gigantic stack in a forward motion, and plopping it onto the felt, but then only releasing calling chips while taking the rest back.
Not that it matters but EP raiser had AA, button had J2.
Flop was KJ2 rainbow.
EDIT: So some of these are really good and this post ended up being educational for me.
Glad everyone that's decided to participate has done so in a constructive fashion!
Straddles, blind raises, blind calls out of turn, loud talking, etc.
I'm in MP and there are already 2-3 people that have called the bet.
I look down at AK and call.
My reasoning being there are 2 extremely aggressive players behind me, the blind raiser included, and at this point I hadn't really played many hands yet.
I decide to go all in as well based on how previous hands have played link get heads up with the hot shot.
You can probably see where this is going.
Hot shot guy declares he has a pair in his hand preflop and says, "It's a race, you have AK!
I then flip them back over and muck my hand.
He flips over something like 4 or 5 high, tabling his cards.
The dealer is pushing me the pot, but the hot shot calls floor.
Floor declares that since I did not fully table my cards that my hand is dead and pushes the pot to the hot shot.
This was the first time anyone had done anything like this to me, so of course I was steaming for an hour or so.
Now, I'm not a very big believer in karma in poker, but it did smack this guy and I directly in the face.
Within an hour you have to return with the same stack, so idk what kind of shit casino this is if they allowed that.
Tonnes of casinos have different rules and I don't think a casino is necessarily shit if it happens there as long as nobody got passed over that wanted into any of the games.
I'm sorry, but if a casino allows someone cash out like 2 grand and then come back 15 mins later and buy in for 100 dollars, that is a shit casino.
It's the casino's job to protect the integrity of the game.
Allowing people the chance to win their money back if theyre going to keep playing is part of that, it's a pretty standard rule.
I dont really believe in that personally.
I'd rather have a fish come back with a 100bb stack than cash out and leave or only play nutted hands until they leave.
After you lose your money you aren't entitled to an opportunity to win it back either.
As long as the guy isn't going south or getting up and trying to sit back down when there's a list 888 poker w.
No decent player is going to care about sitting deep anyways, so this doesnt really concern me.
I'm with Volks on this one.
You can't let a guy re-buy after taking that many chips off the table.
I'd be freaking out on the floor until he put the rest on the table.
Assuming, as I said, nobody that wanted that seat got passed over so that he could re join the game.
Say it's like 2am and he's the spot at the last table.
Do you want him going home or buying back in with a smaller stack?
Hell he might even get spewier now that he has his big stack off the table.
In any half-decent card room I would agree with you, but this was a bar poker league being hosted in a VFW.
If you've ever played any bar poker events you would understand why this wouldn't be heavily enforced.
I recently saw this: Player A goes all in Player B puts his hand in front of his chips palm facing him.
Lifted his hand up and placed it over the bet line.
He never grabbed any chips but his hand motion was as if he had grabbed his whole stack and put it in the middle.
Player A stares at him like he's an idiot.
I think it's stupid but don't really mind, but it definitely tilts the shit out of some visiting players.
Just take like 3-4 seconds minimum even for easy decisions or ask for clarification and you can avoid situations like the one in you OP pretty easily.
The first "angle shoot" that comes to mind and I believe it was unintentional was when a hand went to show down, Player A tabled his hand, Player B said you're good, Player A then turned it back over and mucked before Player B released his hand.
Once Player A has tabled his hand and everyone saw it, Player B would have to show a better hand to win the pot, regardless of whether A mucked before him.
Once a hand has been tabled, it can't be untabled.
Of course, it is a completely different story if nobody saw his hand.
Is this actually the rule and if so can you cite it from something official?
I ask not to be a nitpicky dick but just so I know the rules should the situation occur.
I don't have anything official to link you, https://montanabuys.com/poker/players-poker-tour.html I will tell you that this happened to me at Harrah's I think?
I flipped over my two pair I think?
Other guy flipped his hand over, showing that he had absolutely nothing and went to scoop the pot because I mucked.
Dealer stopped him real quick.
He complained a couple of times, but we didn't have to call floor or anything.
If the guy willing mucks his hand, even after showing everyone, his hand is dead.
Player A loses the pot and player B should be awarded it.
You can't win the pot if you don't have cards.
Protect your hand until you're pushed the pit kids.
My casino doesn't have forward motion but it has a bet line that requires you to release the chips and whatever you release is the bet so you can't put them over the line and cut them but you can just hold a stack over the line forever as long as you dont ever let go of any of the chips.
I'm going to try and play a whole live MTT with my stack over the bet line one time.
I just said 'is that all?
Dealer said he didn't hear one way or the other and the floor rules he didn't call.
I was so shocked that it actually worked I just racked up and left and told the dude to enjoy the discount.
Why the fuck would you he say is that all?
This would put me on massive tilt.
I don't even care about the money I would have just raged at the floor decision.
That's like read more oldest angle in the book, saying I'm calling but also making it sound like I'm all in.
Yeah it was bull shit.
I kind of got the feeling the floor knew him too.
But at that point me getting belligerent isn't gonna change anything so I just said fuck it and left.
I don't care if it seems like I'm slow rolling I'm not getting angle shot or letting someones conversation influence what I do with my hand.
Ok had the exact situation occur at Bellagio.
Was playing with a friend of mine last year.
He was head to head with a player sitting across from him.
My friend bet I forget how much and the guy verbally called but didn't put any chips in.
Friend flipped his cards and the guy claimed he never called.
Dealer said she heard him call.
The floor comes over and polls everyone.
Me and dealer heard call.
Floor ruled in my friend's favor and the angle shooting asswipe left in a huff.
Never ever do this.
At least wait a few seconds to see if he follows through with it.
Or at least verbally confirm with him.
Good idea in hindsight I guess but he 100% said call.
Didn't think there was any chance I wasn't getting the rest of the money.
The absolute worst I've seen is a guy at my local casino playing their Freeroll tourney that sattellites into a bigger monthly MTT.
Villain was facing an All-in from a new kid I'd not seen before.
Villain asks the kid if he wants a call, and the kid says "I'd love you to" to which villain replies "Ok, fine, I guess I'll call".
The kid turns hot shots poker his cards and then villain explains that he had not actually decided to call, that he'd said "I guess I'll call" which doesn't mean he was calling.
I can see his point, and android poker sites was allowed to muck his hand when villain showed the nuts.
Not actually sure what was right there, but it was definitely an angle shoot from the reg.
Dude said some variation of "I call".
Unless there's a don't in the middle of that, it's a call.
This is pretty clear cut to me.
I understand what you're saying but I disagree.
The act is complete once he has taken chips and does his forward motion.
Maybe I didn't emphasize this enough in the OP, but he brought this stack of chips well past his cards and well past the betting line yes I know the betting line does not mean anything, but I'm just trying to give you a reference to how far physically forward this forward motion actually was.
Even if he had pump faked the hot shots poker the same distance and had not let any of them touch the felt this is a completed forward action.
I do agree with you that the guy is a moron for https://montanabuys.com/poker/suite-poker-12345.html shoving.
Even though I have hot shots poker strong opinion that the action is completed once the chips are moved forward in the manner in which he moved them, I do understand that it may be in a grey area for some people, dealers and floors included.
Best not to leave anything to question and have it be a clear cut raise to everyone.
Edit: Yeah, so I re-read my OP and I probably didn't emphasize this enough.
After the all-in was announced, there was definitely an uncomfortable amount of time where the player on the button was frozen hand still holding the stack in the middle as it was touching the felt.
He was definitely thinking about whether or not it would fly if he did what he ended up doing.
Edit2: So it looks like I am actually wrong in respect to what I said to you.
I read some ancient threads and it seems that my forward motion line of thinking is actually up to the floor and basically comes down to what the floor thinks was the intent of the player.
A lot of the card rooms around here New England have hard betting lines so that's where I was coming from as if any poker full house tie cross the line then they are in the pot.
So basically I disagree with your opinion but I have countered it with my own opinion, not an actual rule.
This depends on the room.
I've played in poker rooms where forward motion is binding and this might be a raise.
However, most rooms I've played in south fl allow you to motion forward with your chips, without committing all of them to the pot.
Example: guy is shuffling, say, 10 chips, action is on another guy, who bets 5 chips.
Now, the first guy who just so happens to have been shuffling 10 chips can move the entire stack forward, but only cut out 5 chips, making it a read more />Again, this is in South FL, I can't speak for other parts of the world.
And just to show how huge of a mistake the EP raiser made by acting out of turn, here's a recent example that I was able to take advantage of.
This was before I had released the chips, but after I had begun sliding them forward.
So, without taking my hand off the chips I verbally declared "all in".
That story at the end is an absurd ruling.
You can't call out of turn before there is even a bet.
One of the worst rulings I have ever heard.
TL;DR These rules exist because reasons.
Alright, but what about when people throw in a single chip and verbally declare an All In bet?
This is incredibly standard in all poker rooms I've played in.
Both cash games and tournaments.
Where do you draw the line?
It has to be what is verbally declared.
Say you're playing a tournament, and you intend to bet 8,000.
However, instead of betting a 5,000 chip + 3x 1,000 chips you bet a 500 chip + 3x 1,000 chips by mistake?
A simple mistake which I check my hand have made For the sake of argument, let's say you made this mistake while verbalizing your bet, so out loud you said "eight thousand".
So now you've made it clear that your intent was to bet 8k, but the amount you threw out was 3.
were initial poker bet opinion bet stands in this spot?
The bet you threw out?
The bet you verbally declared?
It seems to me that most honest mistakes are going to occur when a player misreads a chip and throws out the wrong amount, intending to bet something else.
So the "verbal is binding" rule I assume is in place to protect players from making mistakes which could seriously cost them.
This is why when you play low stakes live poker, you will see some players who verbalize all their bets, and will never act until the dealer prompts them to even if they know the action is on them.
They are trying to ensure that they don't act out of turn or make any action that they don't intend to make.
All of what you said is true, that doesn't change the fact that a call out of turn can't the binding before there is even action to call.
Ok, good to know.
Next time I have a hand that I don't want to get blown off of on the river and my opponent is in the process of betting, I'll be sure to say "I call".
Hopefully this will get them to bet smaller so I can see a cheaper showdown.
If it doesn't work.
Total freeroll for me, not like I'm actually committed to the call.
I don't see there being any advantage to be gained by trying to commit yourself to an unknown bet amount.
This is no different than saying "I will call whatever you bet!
I read some discussions about this on twoplustwo and it seems like it's a semi-divisive issue, with most people being on your side of the argument.
I've seen this situation come up 3 times in 3 different poker rooms, in 2 different states.
Each time it was a heads-up pot and the floor ruled that the out of turn call was binding.
On two of these occasions the person betting verbally announced a bet which was clearly larger than the bet they hot shots poker intended to make, and the floor made the other player call the larger bet.
I'm coming around to your side of the argument actually, based on this discussion and others I've read online.
I no longer think out of turn calls should be binding even though it's very annoying and someone could really rattle an inexperienced player with these antics.
That said, the rule does exist in many rooms and it could certainly be a very costly mistake for someone.
I am not saying it is a sportsmanlike thing to do, and would fall under the definition of angle shooting easily, as do many asshole behaviours that are legal.
Not a dealer myself, but a good friend I just asked is.
He said though it depends on the casino sometimes, ours has a line.
The person may get a warning, but it's either anything over the line is committed or a verbal commitment is the only thing that's binding.
The act is complete once he has taken chips and does his forward motion.
I think you have an incorrect view of what completes a betting action.
Most cash games I've played are the latter, where you can take a stack of chips forward and drop the amount necessary to call.
The only room I can remember that used a line was one that had a lot of new players who didn't know what they were doing, so they made that a rule to protect them.
It's not a standard rule.
When you say he plopped the stack onto the felt, that's almost always the case when counting out a call in this manner.
Unless he let go of the stack, his action is not complete.
EP guy messed up and should have waited.
I highly doubt this.
He may be forced to call, but I'm almost certain he would not be forced to raise whatever he had in his hand.
NO LIMIT RULES 5.
A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot, unless the player has made a verbal statement of action.
Yeah it sounds like the whole situation could have been avoided if EP just waited instead of being an idiot but BTN's call sounds really angle-y either way.
I bust, buddy is in seat 9 20BBtell the table GL GL.
Short stack young shithead in seat 8 already shouting about paying the bubble.
He told me, the shithead in seat 8 above phil gordon poker earnings phrase to him "he would step on my buddys' foot when he had a good hand".
Folds to seat 8 on the buttonhe steps on my buddys foot, then jams for around 6BB.
I'm sure it would make any player uncomfortable to be the unwilling recipient of signaling.
TL'DR: dude tried to signal to a stranger near the bubble I was playing at the majestic star in Gary, Indiana.
At showdown the guy that is all in showed a pair of kings.
The other guy said, "is that all you got?
Since the guy gave up his hand and walked away, the loser won the pot.
Floor supervisor here, sorry but that's a terrible ruling.
How does it make any sense to make a shitty ruling just because the proper ruling technically helps you?
That is extremely flawed logic, which just ended up fucking over the other guy.
Maybe I'm missing something, but should you be playing in a game where you're also a judge who makes binding decisions?
That doesn't seem right at all; a judge should be impartial and have no monetary interest in the game.
Maybe I'm missing something or you could explain why it's okay?
Not being a dick, really curious I agree.
I would be uncomfortable playing against a player that was also the floor manager.
I would leave the table.
A few regs expose their cards when they are considering calling an all in bet or big bet on the river.
Hero will then expose their cards thinking they are winning and that hot shots poker reg has called, when infact he hasnt and is just trying to gauge their reaction heads up.
Villain then open folds his hand into the muck when he sees he is losing.
This is exactly the kind of thing you usually only learn from experience.
You can't find this in the poker books.
Getting hot shots poker of real life angle shooting is the best way to avoid real life angle shooting.
Nowhere I've played considers counting out a stack of chips as a raise unless they're literally over a line if there's a line.
If everyone waited until it was their turn to count chips, each hand would take 10 minutes.
It's not that difficult to know how many chips are needed to make a please click for source, call, or raise.
Besides counting out calling chips when it's not your turn is giving your opponents info you wouldn't want them to know.
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